Yes indeed. Leaving the clamp on the brain that is religion is profoundly life changing. (The great history of free-thought has largely been erased from history. Christianity boasts of its martyrs but the reality is the systematic destruction of those who dissented or dared to think for themselves. Those number in the millions.)
-Edited to change a misspelling to my intended word choice, 'life'.
I grew up in the south in a little town where the Pentecostal Holiness Church was the one most everyone attended. People would shout, talk in tongues, run up and down the aisles, and jump up and down. I was afraid of all this at first, but I guess I got used to it.
The rules were very strict--NO smoking, (the two most wealthy men in the congregation were tobacco farmers and therefore could never be deacons), drinking, wearing jewelry, wearing halter tops or shorts, going to movies, cussing, and of course no hanging around people who indulged in these taboo activities.
I was very uptight, modest, and afraid of anyone who was different from
me. I realize now that I always harshly judged people if they looked
"rough", not bothering to get to know them.
My mother had two sisters who lived with us until they got homes of their own. My mother and one sister were extremely modest and shy and didn't even like wearing pajamas in front of us. The other sister was totally opposite. My brothers and I (preteens) had to wash her back while she was in the tub! I DID learn to do this without embarrassment.
When I went to a Southern Baptist college, I would stand at my dorm-room door and watch girls come staggering in with inebriation. I had never seen girls drink. It scared me.
The girls'and boys' dorms were on separate parts of the campus and never the twain would meet. :) Curfew was 10:00pm during the week and 11:00 on the weekends.
No dances could be held in campus.
I finally "grew up" when I was in my 30s.
The one thing I remember being taught by my mother was the Golden Rule. That's what I live by now.
I'm happy to hear that I'm not the only one who processed their confusion, uncertainty, and pain via education. My dissertation was titled Pressure to Behave, Believe, and Become: Identity Negotiation Stories from People Who Grew Up "Cult." Many people in the International Cultic Studies Association came to process religious trauma. Interestingly enough, I straddled the culture wars. I grew up without religious ideology and its repressive, harmful effects. But, without therapy back then, and given the Army at the time, my parents weren't able to give me the scaffolding that I needed. Dad came out bisexual and my parents divorced. In working out his sexual trauma/depression/suicidal ideation, dad joined the sexual freedom league. It wasn't great to live in a hyper-sexualized environment from 14-17 years old. I was voted "most liberated woman" in my 1975 senior class. He introduced me to the cultic group that I became a part of for 7.5 years, age 17-25. It was a commune that sold sex classes, along with a little Epstein-lite human trafficking on the side. To pay the bills, you know.
I was raised Lutheran, so things were strict but we found out early about Katie Luther .. pretty racy stuff for a 12 year old.
Lutheran was slow to the "acceptance" table for alternative sexual orientations, but they have improved their "loving" behaviour, pastor by pastor, rather than a nationwide decision that angered many.
I left after trying to move my congregation to be pro-justice, anti-racist and pro- various sexual orientation. I found Congregational UCC. Even in Florida, they are proudly welcoming and affirming and racially balanced, also very intelligent members individually.
Maybe it's the intelligent part that makes the healing happen?
That's cool that you found a church like that, Nancy. I know there are many of them. My friends go to Unitarian churches. That's where my dad ended up. He did lots of volunteer work, e.g., for STD education, AIDs patients, gleaning & food banks, feeding people on Thanksgiving.
I think intelligence helps; I feel fortunate to have a high IQ. But the skills of socio-emotional intelligence are probably the most important. I once led a curriculum redesign effort for the Army's JROTC program. It has excellent content & skill development. A really good program. Taxpayers paid for it.
Post-traumatic growth is real. Many people who have suffered greatly develop strategies that don't shut down their ability to feel empathy or care for others. But you don't have to suffer a lot to learn those skills. And many people who suffer find themselves unable to overcome despair, fear, and anger.
I just want to weep for the reality of your young life and the lives of those still in that “religion”. Thank you for your courage, to leave, to live and to shed light on this cultish religion. I really appreciate your writings.
Jess, thank you for doing so. It’s because of people like you sharing their stories that I’ve tried to be open and what some my age may consider too much info with my kids and friends about body functions. I wanted my boys to know what a girl’s body actually does and vice versa. The joke in our family is that at some point in a big family dinner the conversation will come around to someone’s toilet story. And now that I have a lot of grandkids that’s probably a good thing. My mom told me stuff as a kid but not everything and it just wasn’t “polite” to discuss it. But because of stories like yours I hope I’ve taught my kids more and they are definitely open with their kids. I don’t get a kick out of telling people about having a hysterectomy but I know I wish people had told me. Or of talking about options for menstrual products with my grandkids with uteruses when they want to and they bring it up in front of the boys. Some of that early “be polite” training exists but stories like yours burn with truth and we can change our ways.
Thanks for sharing Jackie. I was raised by a "staunch Lutheran" Mom and a SBC raised dad from OK. My dad was the better Christian and an unusually enlightened male. He was #6 of 8 kids so was assigned to help his mom with the last two. He saw how it was for his older sisters and his Mom, all those mouths to feed and clothes to make and clean. He saw his sister's get beaten with a belt on bare skin.
He was a great male person for me as an example. I'm a very outspoken female, not that I haven't stumbled, but raised my boy girl twins to have understanding of each the others challenges. Women are the future.
Just being in a community where they are dominant socially is traumatic, I had a weird childhood and the local churches had a lot to do with much of it. Being a gifted kid with a "shameful mother" meant I got regularly shunned starting in elementary school.
I was a Muslim for 10 years and knew quite a few fundamentalists, but the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage. Abortion is not forbidden in Islam. Shame is part of the religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism. Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith. But as in all religions, they are basically inventions for enforcing social control.
Some of the young women honor-murdered by their own families for refusing hijab or "being too Western" might dispute your take on Islam versus Southern Baptists. Otherwise, spot on.
I wasn't aware that some people feel it's a competition, honestly. But sweeping statements require precise responses, or at least responses that recognize those whose deaths would otherwise be swept under the prayer mat.
It's not a "sweeping statement." I clearly meant mainstream Islam. I lived in the middle east for 7 years and never heard of a single so-called honor killing, especially for such things as refusing to wear the hijab or "being too western." Your prejudice is showing, and your remark about prayer mats is just ugly and sarcastic. Honor killings mostly take place in India and Pakistan, where the mistreatment of women is common and women are killed for refusing an arranged marriage. By the way, honor killings are not part of Islam, but are culturally based. The Prophet Mohamed condemned them. Nevertheless, ignorance and misogyny have always worn the mask of religion, which is what Jess is writing about. We are not here to debate what we think a religion professes but to share our experiences.
Mary, for me, when you jumping from your particular experience in a ten year period to "the only thing shared b/w Islam and other Abrahamic faiths," it is an implausible leap.
You are apparently referring to religious doctrine when you say abortion is not forbidden; btw, it isn't for Jews, either; Jewish texts define life as beginning at birth. I just did a mifipristone rally with Presbyterians and Jews; we discussed it. You seem to be referring to religious practice--observable behavior--when you say shame was more prevalent within Catholicism than you experienced as a Muslim.
It's anecdotal, what you experienced. Religious expression might be as varied as gender expression. People pick from the texts what to emphasize.
"Religions" don't treat women like garbage. Religious people USE religious texts to rationalize treating women like second class citizens that they have the right to control. Lots of women buy into this, because some of their needs are being met.
Humans felt the need to make sense of the world and to impose social norms, so they came up with explanations, including religious explanations.
No, not at all. I'm not questioning your personal experience. I'm stating that your personal experience does not qualify as sufficient evidence for some claims that you made:
1) "the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage." I refuted that claim by pointing out that the Jewish faith also does not prohibit abortion. It's simply not am evidence-based claim.
2) "Shame is part of the [Islamic] religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism." I questioned that claim by stating that there is a lot of variance in how religious doctrine is expressed, depending on various factors. For example, NE Catholic priest refused to marry couple unless it was inside a church; Colorado priest does outdoor weddings. Plus, shame is a human emotion. So, when you say it's part of a religion, in what ways? How did you personally experience it as different between Islam and Catholicism? Was it induced or alleviated by a particular officiant?
And we can add this one:
3) "Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith." Your personal experience does not supply enough evidence to support this claim. When I was interviewing people who left cultic groups, I contacted Ayan Hirsi Ali to see if I might be able to recruit Islamic women to the study. I didn't get any, but I do know that she was raised as a Muslim and genitally mutilated; she also endured a fatwah for speaking out. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-my-life-under-a-fatwa-760666.html. In my years at Emmanuel Baptist Church, no one had their clitoris removed and their vaginal opening sewn shut, to my knowledge. That's my personal experience.
I took your initial post as a protective instinct against prejudice against Muslims, which I appreciate. I simply feel that we need to be cautious in how we speak about religious groups, and that it's important for us to understand the limits to what we have come to believe via personal experience. Just because I walk outside and its raining doesn't mean its raining everywhere.
Seems kind of dumb to be arguing about this, much less throwing pointed barbs like "So, you are questioning my personal experience because you were there at the time. Got it."
Yeah…Catholicism🤬 The hypocrisy of ALL religions, which all believers think are divinely inspired, is too much. Native Americans seem to have the most honest belief systems that while laced with spirituality are also recognized as stories that teach.
I have never read anything like this or had conversation like this, so for you to clearly state what it is like as a young girl to be raised in a Southern Baptist church is comforting more than I can say. I was raised in a SB church where there was an abundance of male power related to control that was absent of any love or compassion. Women were more than likely guilty if raped because of the way they acted or dressed - the pastor stopped speaking to my mom when he came to the house and went straight to the kitchen where she was working dressed in shorts and a plaid top. At revivals, preachers ran up and down the aisle shouting "ARE YA SAVED" in the face of children - I was so frightened and dreaded those experiences. Women were expected to stay home, be demure and quiet. Coming to terms with all of this can lead to either having to step up and move on or live in a life of confusion fighting your own good sense and self-awareness. THANK YOU, Jess Piper, for all you are doing and writing - I hope you'll embrace all the goodness we feel from you - keep it up, we hear you and are moving on with you!!
My mother-in-law was such a devout Catholic, she was packing to go to the convent when she decided to marry instead. She was so ignorant and ashamed of her body that she used several different washcloths to bathe with, so the "clean parts" weren't contaminated by the "dirty parts". We aren't talking actual dirt here!
Oh Jess. Me too, me too. I am 65. When I visited my 91 yo SBC father a few days ago, he brought up politics. I shut it down by saying, “Would you leave me, your daughter, alone in a room with that man? And before you answer, if you say yes, we have a problem.” My father looked at his hands and remained silent because of course he would sacrifice his daughter for the needs of a good Christian man. That’s all we’re good for, right?
A friend's MIL, who has 2 daughters, one of whom is an Ob-Gyn- voted Dump twice, and I know she experienced her share of sexual abuse in the workplace. Fox News is a hell of a drug, is all I can think of...
My Dad was SBC raised in OK. But he was also the kid who helped his mother with all the work of 8 kids. He felt bad that his mom was so overworked and witnessed his older sister get a beating with a belt. He was very understanding and loving, and proud of his 3 daughters. I can't imagine what you went through. Congratulations on coming out stronger on the "other side".
Loved your honesty and recovery. I am 72, grew up in a Methodist chruch and converted to Catholicism because it was a progressive community, but every shaming thing you said was there. It wasn’t just in church, it was the common view of females in our culture. We were all groomed to,be Stepford wives. I remember when I was in the 7th grade at a public school, my teacher said my skirt was too short, The test was you had to put your knee on the bleacher in the gym and it the skirt hem did not touch then the skirt was too short. Mine just did’t quite reach and I was sent home, shamed that somehow my barely visible knee could cause someone harm? Keeping women ignorant of their bodies and their rights is how men control women. It took me sometime before I was able to see that our culture is a patriarchal paternalistic culture. I hope the equal rights amendment gets added to the Constitution before I die so I can see the word woman in that document, Enough JaneCrow, pink taxing white supremacist nonsense.
On another note, I have a small favor to ask of this community, After 41 years of nursing, I am home with long covid as is my 50my/o dtr. I am enclosing 2 links, One summarizes what we know about long covid so far, and the other I am asking to sign, Congress is getting ready to cut funding to covid research, This link is asking your Congresspersons to not only not cut funding but to increase it.
Thank you, and thank you for being such a supportive community during these truly trying times.
Thank you so much. Take care and stay safe . Disease experts anticipate a small uptick in Covid cases this summer, as a new variant spreads. The KP. 2 variant represents 28% of Covid infections in the U.S., up from just 6% in mid-April, according to data released Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.May
Thank you for the heads up! I'm 66 and my husband is 71 with progressive MS. We're all up to date on boosters. Will mask up again if cases tick up in Pittsburgh!
I’m finding it hard to know what to say. Thank you for sharing this with us. I am so sorry you went through this; my fear is that it has never stopped.
This is so sad I almost cried. I have a friend who grew up in a similar home with a dad who was a minister of some sort.
I often think when it comes to men shaming women, it’s all about men’s inability to control their urges and blaming women for it. Whether it’s the Taliban or the SBC, it’s all about men not owning their behavior or their lust. It’s really disgusting
I remember my mother catching me masturbating when I was 7 years old. She beat me with a wooden spoon, screaming "Shame on you! Shame on you! Naughty, naughty!" I couldn't feel sexual pleasure with a man until I was 40. You see, masturbation wasn't the sin - the pleasure was. My mother told me to tell the priest when I went to confession, but I never did. We were told again and again that sexuality was appropriate only within marriage, so that explains a lot about why so many people feel so much sexual guilt. It's not just the Baptists, but the Catholics as well.
Thanks for sharing this, Jess. It is one thing to know in our heads the pernicious effect of dogma and religious practice, it's another to understand it in our hearts. Nolilite's comment pointed the finger at my church, Roman Catholicism, and she/he's right to do so. The sexual abuse by male church leaders, the sequestering of women leaders to the sisterly orders, and other blindnesses of the Catholic Church have made it hard for so many (particularly young women) to stay connected. With the ascendancy of the Alito, Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Thomas, and Gorsuch, all conservative Catholics dominating the Supreme Court, and imposing their vision of Catholic dogma on the body politic, it is hard times to negotiate being a liberal and a Catholic or a liberal and a Christian in any denomination. (Sonia Sotomayor identifies as Catholic as well but is of a different stripe.) But each oppression has its own flavor and the Southern Baptists are particularly blatant in seeing women as subservient. yet dangerous: needing to be silenced and subjugated. This is the future we face: the unholy alliance between White Nationalist Evangelicals and Conservative Roman Catholics, which historically have not been particularly allied or even friendly (When I was young, conservative Protestant friends would not consider Catholics as Christians. I suspect that is still true.) The only hope I have is for the long arc of the moral universe that Martin Luther King Jr. to continue to bend toward justice. But gravity alone will not bend that. That is why your writing is so important. I am convinced that the only way that happens is when we are all willing to listen and grow and committed to make good trouble in our churches and in the political sphere.
It is still true. Talking to one of my ex-husband's Southern relatives, he stated that he was a "religious man." Without thinking I asked, "Catholic?" and he replied, "No, ma'am, I am a Christian."
Thanks for sharing that. It should strike me as shocking, but it just made me laugh. I know that anti-Catholic feeling is a strong strain in American populism of the nativism variety. Roman Catholics as immigrants and interlopers. The KKK hated Catholics and Jews as well as Black people of course. In my first two teaching positions at small colleges in northwest Iowa and rural North Carolina, I was one of only two or three Catholics on the faculty, even though In Iowa there were two Catholic churches in the town of 8,000 souls. In NC there were only about 100 or so Catholics in the county. Yur story exemplifies for me why the collaboration of Catholics and White Evangelicals seems so odd, coalescing probably on the abortion issue.
Abortion is the tip of the iceberg. In every "Abrahamic" religion (does Mormonism count? It seems a little crazier than it has to be), it boils down to the complete control of women. Selling daughters, accumulating wives, removing agency, self-determination and the power of refusal while extracting unpaid work from women. If there existed a time machine, Abraham would be my first target for removal.
Once when my son was about 6 or 7, he asked , “Who is better off; people who believe in God or Catholics?” It was hard to deal with that on a level appropriate for a child, but the general gist of my response was that a relationship with God isn’t exclusive to any church. He was a deep thinker quite early, so we had many interesting discussions about things I never could have brought up to my parents.
I was raised in the Christian & Missionary Alliance denomination. Not quite as conservative as the SBC, but it’s pretty close.
Yep southern Christians don’t believe Catholics are Christian my in-laws had my child baptized bc her Catholic baptism wasn’t real and she wasn’t saved no church for her now
See, THIS is why I refuse to call the "Nationalist Christians" by the term Christian. They are Evangelicals,,,, but NOT Christian, it's a huge difference.
Thank you. Thank you for saying all this out loud and with an eloquence and coherence I would never be able to achieve. So much of it was implied, shadowy, but pervasive — left to our child brains to absorb without realizing, let alone understanding. I haven’t followed the religion I was raised in for 40 years, and i still have to fight to recognize and release this brainwashing before i pass it on to my children.
Thank you for sharing. I'm so sorry that you, and so many others, experienced (and continue to experience) this shaming that stems from a flawed understanding of our bodies as "sinful" or just "wrong."
It does help me to understand how so many (male) legislators are utterly clueless about what they're trying to legislate — e.g. banning abortions for ectopic pregnancies. Ugh. Gross. Their lack of interest in how bodies actually work will end up killing many people and their disinterest will not exonerate them.
Freedom from religion is a greatness not enough know.
Yes indeed. Leaving the clamp on the brain that is religion is profoundly life changing. (The great history of free-thought has largely been erased from history. Christianity boasts of its martyrs but the reality is the systematic destruction of those who dissented or dared to think for themselves. Those number in the millions.)
-Edited to change a misspelling to my intended word choice, 'life'.
I grew up Southern Baptist had to get a Ph.D. in theology and a lifetime of therapy to get beyond it. I know where of you speak. The pain is deep.
I grew up in the south in a little town where the Pentecostal Holiness Church was the one most everyone attended. People would shout, talk in tongues, run up and down the aisles, and jump up and down. I was afraid of all this at first, but I guess I got used to it.
The rules were very strict--NO smoking, (the two most wealthy men in the congregation were tobacco farmers and therefore could never be deacons), drinking, wearing jewelry, wearing halter tops or shorts, going to movies, cussing, and of course no hanging around people who indulged in these taboo activities.
I was very uptight, modest, and afraid of anyone who was different from
me. I realize now that I always harshly judged people if they looked
"rough", not bothering to get to know them.
My mother had two sisters who lived with us until they got homes of their own. My mother and one sister were extremely modest and shy and didn't even like wearing pajamas in front of us. The other sister was totally opposite. My brothers and I (preteens) had to wash her back while she was in the tub! I DID learn to do this without embarrassment.
When I went to a Southern Baptist college, I would stand at my dorm-room door and watch girls come staggering in with inebriation. I had never seen girls drink. It scared me.
The girls'and boys' dorms were on separate parts of the campus and never the twain would meet. :) Curfew was 10:00pm during the week and 11:00 on the weekends.
No dances could be held in campus.
I finally "grew up" when I was in my 30s.
The one thing I remember being taught by my mother was the Golden Rule. That's what I live by now.
Jess, thanks for sharing your story.
We all have one, don't we?
I'm happy to hear that I'm not the only one who processed their confusion, uncertainty, and pain via education. My dissertation was titled Pressure to Behave, Believe, and Become: Identity Negotiation Stories from People Who Grew Up "Cult." Many people in the International Cultic Studies Association came to process religious trauma. Interestingly enough, I straddled the culture wars. I grew up without religious ideology and its repressive, harmful effects. But, without therapy back then, and given the Army at the time, my parents weren't able to give me the scaffolding that I needed. Dad came out bisexual and my parents divorced. In working out his sexual trauma/depression/suicidal ideation, dad joined the sexual freedom league. It wasn't great to live in a hyper-sexualized environment from 14-17 years old. I was voted "most liberated woman" in my 1975 senior class. He introduced me to the cultic group that I became a part of for 7.5 years, age 17-25. It was a commune that sold sex classes, along with a little Epstein-lite human trafficking on the side. To pay the bills, you know.
Wow,,,, emphasis on the OW!
I was raised Lutheran, so things were strict but we found out early about Katie Luther .. pretty racy stuff for a 12 year old.
Lutheran was slow to the "acceptance" table for alternative sexual orientations, but they have improved their "loving" behaviour, pastor by pastor, rather than a nationwide decision that angered many.
I left after trying to move my congregation to be pro-justice, anti-racist and pro- various sexual orientation. I found Congregational UCC. Even in Florida, they are proudly welcoming and affirming and racially balanced, also very intelligent members individually.
Maybe it's the intelligent part that makes the healing happen?
That's cool that you found a church like that, Nancy. I know there are many of them. My friends go to Unitarian churches. That's where my dad ended up. He did lots of volunteer work, e.g., for STD education, AIDs patients, gleaning & food banks, feeding people on Thanksgiving.
I think intelligence helps; I feel fortunate to have a high IQ. But the skills of socio-emotional intelligence are probably the most important. I once led a curriculum redesign effort for the Army's JROTC program. It has excellent content & skill development. A really good program. Taxpayers paid for it.
Post-traumatic growth is real. Many people who have suffered greatly develop strategies that don't shut down their ability to feel empathy or care for others. But you don't have to suffer a lot to learn those skills. And many people who suffer find themselves unable to overcome despair, fear, and anger.
I just want to weep for the reality of your young life and the lives of those still in that “religion”. Thank you for your courage, to leave, to live and to shed light on this cultish religion. I really appreciate your writings.
It’s not just the Southern Baptist.
Exactly. It's just the only one I can speak on.
This is powerful. Thank you.
Jess, thank you for doing so. It’s because of people like you sharing their stories that I’ve tried to be open and what some my age may consider too much info with my kids and friends about body functions. I wanted my boys to know what a girl’s body actually does and vice versa. The joke in our family is that at some point in a big family dinner the conversation will come around to someone’s toilet story. And now that I have a lot of grandkids that’s probably a good thing. My mom told me stuff as a kid but not everything and it just wasn’t “polite” to discuss it. But because of stories like yours I hope I’ve taught my kids more and they are definitely open with their kids. I don’t get a kick out of telling people about having a hysterectomy but I know I wish people had told me. Or of talking about options for menstrual products with my grandkids with uteruses when they want to and they bring it up in front of the boys. Some of that early “be polite” training exists but stories like yours burn with truth and we can change our ways.
Thanks for sharing Jackie. I was raised by a "staunch Lutheran" Mom and a SBC raised dad from OK. My dad was the better Christian and an unusually enlightened male. He was #6 of 8 kids so was assigned to help his mom with the last two. He saw how it was for his older sisters and his Mom, all those mouths to feed and clothes to make and clean. He saw his sister's get beaten with a belt on bare skin.
He was a great male person for me as an example. I'm a very outspoken female, not that I haven't stumbled, but raised my boy girl twins to have understanding of each the others challenges. Women are the future.
Just being in a community where they are dominant socially is traumatic, I had a weird childhood and the local churches had a lot to do with much of it. Being a gifted kid with a "shameful mother" meant I got regularly shunned starting in elementary school.
So sorry for your experiences...
I’m so sorry for people being just plain mean and judging others. Reminds me of that song “Harper Valley PTA.”
One of my mom's favorites. Mine, too. I still know the words.
I was trying to think of that song earlier when reading some of these sad tales of growing up and young adulthood. Thanks!
*cackles* my mom LOVED that song.
So sorry, God is love and forgiveness,,, sorry humans tried to teach you otherwise.
Perhaps 'less bad' compared to the tender mercies of fundamentalist Islam. But it seems all the Abrahamic religions treat women like garbage.
I guess a death cult is going to death cult..
I was a Muslim for 10 years and knew quite a few fundamentalists, but the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage. Abortion is not forbidden in Islam. Shame is part of the religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism. Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith. But as in all religions, they are basically inventions for enforcing social control.
Some of the young women honor-murdered by their own families for refusing hijab or "being too Western" might dispute your take on Islam versus Southern Baptists. Otherwise, spot on.
Oh get serious. Do you think our daughters’ deaths for having tried to abort their babies is less heinous?
I wasn't aware that some people feel it's a competition, honestly. But sweeping statements require precise responses, or at least responses that recognize those whose deaths would otherwise be swept under the prayer mat.
It's not a "sweeping statement." I clearly meant mainstream Islam. I lived in the middle east for 7 years and never heard of a single so-called honor killing, especially for such things as refusing to wear the hijab or "being too western." Your prejudice is showing, and your remark about prayer mats is just ugly and sarcastic. Honor killings mostly take place in India and Pakistan, where the mistreatment of women is common and women are killed for refusing an arranged marriage. By the way, honor killings are not part of Islam, but are culturally based. The Prophet Mohamed condemned them. Nevertheless, ignorance and misogyny have always worn the mask of religion, which is what Jess is writing about. We are not here to debate what we think a religion professes but to share our experiences.
Mary, for me, when you jumping from your particular experience in a ten year period to "the only thing shared b/w Islam and other Abrahamic faiths," it is an implausible leap.
You are apparently referring to religious doctrine when you say abortion is not forbidden; btw, it isn't for Jews, either; Jewish texts define life as beginning at birth. I just did a mifipristone rally with Presbyterians and Jews; we discussed it. You seem to be referring to religious practice--observable behavior--when you say shame was more prevalent within Catholicism than you experienced as a Muslim.
It's anecdotal, what you experienced. Religious expression might be as varied as gender expression. People pick from the texts what to emphasize.
"Religions" don't treat women like garbage. Religious people USE religious texts to rationalize treating women like second class citizens that they have the right to control. Lots of women buy into this, because some of their needs are being met.
Humans felt the need to make sense of the world and to impose social norms, so they came up with explanations, including religious explanations.
So, you are questioning my personal experience because you were there at the time. Got it.
No, not at all. I'm not questioning your personal experience. I'm stating that your personal experience does not qualify as sufficient evidence for some claims that you made:
1) "the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage." I refuted that claim by pointing out that the Jewish faith also does not prohibit abortion. It's simply not am evidence-based claim.
2) "Shame is part of the [Islamic] religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism." I questioned that claim by stating that there is a lot of variance in how religious doctrine is expressed, depending on various factors. For example, NE Catholic priest refused to marry couple unless it was inside a church; Colorado priest does outdoor weddings. Plus, shame is a human emotion. So, when you say it's part of a religion, in what ways? How did you personally experience it as different between Islam and Catholicism? Was it induced or alleviated by a particular officiant?
And we can add this one:
3) "Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith." Your personal experience does not supply enough evidence to support this claim. When I was interviewing people who left cultic groups, I contacted Ayan Hirsi Ali to see if I might be able to recruit Islamic women to the study. I didn't get any, but I do know that she was raised as a Muslim and genitally mutilated; she also endured a fatwah for speaking out. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-my-life-under-a-fatwa-760666.html. In my years at Emmanuel Baptist Church, no one had their clitoris removed and their vaginal opening sewn shut, to my knowledge. That's my personal experience.
I took your initial post as a protective instinct against prejudice against Muslims, which I appreciate. I simply feel that we need to be cautious in how we speak about religious groups, and that it's important for us to understand the limits to what we have come to believe via personal experience. Just because I walk outside and its raining doesn't mean its raining everywhere.
Seems kind of dumb to be arguing about this, much less throwing pointed barbs like "So, you are questioning my personal experience because you were there at the time. Got it."
Yeah-let’s talk about the joys of Catholicism.
Yeah…Catholicism🤬 The hypocrisy of ALL religions, which all believers think are divinely inspired, is too much. Native Americans seem to have the most honest belief systems that while laced with spirituality are also recognized as stories that teach.
Native American and early Celtic are the closest I can tolerate.
😢
I have never read anything like this or had conversation like this, so for you to clearly state what it is like as a young girl to be raised in a Southern Baptist church is comforting more than I can say. I was raised in a SB church where there was an abundance of male power related to control that was absent of any love or compassion. Women were more than likely guilty if raped because of the way they acted or dressed - the pastor stopped speaking to my mom when he came to the house and went straight to the kitchen where she was working dressed in shorts and a plaid top. At revivals, preachers ran up and down the aisle shouting "ARE YA SAVED" in the face of children - I was so frightened and dreaded those experiences. Women were expected to stay home, be demure and quiet. Coming to terms with all of this can lead to either having to step up and move on or live in a life of confusion fighting your own good sense and self-awareness. THANK YOU, Jess Piper, for all you are doing and writing - I hope you'll embrace all the goodness we feel from you - keep it up, we hear you and are moving on with you!!
Catholicism did the same to me. Patriarchal, full of guilt and fear.
My mother-in-law was such a devout Catholic, she was packing to go to the convent when she decided to marry instead. She was so ignorant and ashamed of her body that she used several different washcloths to bathe with, so the "clean parts" weren't contaminated by the "dirty parts". We aren't talking actual dirt here!
I actually had an aunt who became a nun. My grandparents "gave her to the Church," as though she was a farm animal.
Sickening
How tragic for her
Oh Jess. Me too, me too. I am 65. When I visited my 91 yo SBC father a few days ago, he brought up politics. I shut it down by saying, “Would you leave me, your daughter, alone in a room with that man? And before you answer, if you say yes, we have a problem.” My father looked at his hands and remained silent because of course he would sacrifice his daughter for the needs of a good Christian man. That’s all we’re good for, right?
A friend's MIL, who has 2 daughters, one of whom is an Ob-Gyn- voted Dump twice, and I know she experienced her share of sexual abuse in the workplace. Fox News is a hell of a drug, is all I can think of...
Holy cow, how awful.
WOW,,, with emphasis on the "OW".
My Dad was SBC raised in OK. But he was also the kid who helped his mother with all the work of 8 kids. He felt bad that his mom was so overworked and witnessed his older sister get a beating with a belt. He was very understanding and loving, and proud of his 3 daughters. I can't imagine what you went through. Congratulations on coming out stronger on the "other side".
Thank you. You’re very kind.
wow. I'm so sorry
Oh my gawd....i am so sorry. But sadly not surprised.
Loved your honesty and recovery. I am 72, grew up in a Methodist chruch and converted to Catholicism because it was a progressive community, but every shaming thing you said was there. It wasn’t just in church, it was the common view of females in our culture. We were all groomed to,be Stepford wives. I remember when I was in the 7th grade at a public school, my teacher said my skirt was too short, The test was you had to put your knee on the bleacher in the gym and it the skirt hem did not touch then the skirt was too short. Mine just did’t quite reach and I was sent home, shamed that somehow my barely visible knee could cause someone harm? Keeping women ignorant of their bodies and their rights is how men control women. It took me sometime before I was able to see that our culture is a patriarchal paternalistic culture. I hope the equal rights amendment gets added to the Constitution before I die so I can see the word woman in that document, Enough JaneCrow, pink taxing white supremacist nonsense.
On another note, I have a small favor to ask of this community, After 41 years of nursing, I am home with long covid as is my 50my/o dtr. I am enclosing 2 links, One summarizes what we know about long covid so far, and the other I am asking to sign, Congress is getting ready to cut funding to covid research, This link is asking your Congresspersons to not only not cut funding but to increase it.
Thank you, and thank you for being such a supportive community during these truly trying times.
https://longcovidmoonshot.com/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00846-2
Done! Emailed my senator & rep! Hope you get the help you need and are well soon!
Thank you so much. Take care and stay safe . Disease experts anticipate a small uptick in Covid cases this summer, as a new variant spreads. The KP. 2 variant represents 28% of Covid infections in the U.S., up from just 6% in mid-April, according to data released Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.May
Thank you for the heads up! I'm 66 and my husband is 71 with progressive MS. We're all up to date on boosters. Will mask up again if cases tick up in Pittsburgh!
Spent wonderful years in Point Breeze, near entrance to Frick Park. UU member then. Wonderful memories and I adore my hometown, Pittsburgh!
I’m finding it hard to know what to say. Thank you for sharing this with us. I am so sorry you went through this; my fear is that it has never stopped.
This is so sad I almost cried. I have a friend who grew up in a similar home with a dad who was a minister of some sort.
I often think when it comes to men shaming women, it’s all about men’s inability to control their urges and blaming women for it. Whether it’s the Taliban or the SBC, it’s all about men not owning their behavior or their lust. It’s really disgusting
I completely agree with you! It's always blame the woman, instead of blame yourself.
I remember my mother catching me masturbating when I was 7 years old. She beat me with a wooden spoon, screaming "Shame on you! Shame on you! Naughty, naughty!" I couldn't feel sexual pleasure with a man until I was 40. You see, masturbation wasn't the sin - the pleasure was. My mother told me to tell the priest when I went to confession, but I never did. We were told again and again that sexuality was appropriate only within marriage, so that explains a lot about why so many people feel so much sexual guilt. It's not just the Baptists, but the Catholics as well.
No matter when you leave it behind, it goes deep within your psyche. the childish guilt and fear still lives on.
Thanks for sharing this, Jess. It is one thing to know in our heads the pernicious effect of dogma and religious practice, it's another to understand it in our hearts. Nolilite's comment pointed the finger at my church, Roman Catholicism, and she/he's right to do so. The sexual abuse by male church leaders, the sequestering of women leaders to the sisterly orders, and other blindnesses of the Catholic Church have made it hard for so many (particularly young women) to stay connected. With the ascendancy of the Alito, Barrett, Kavanaugh, and Thomas, and Gorsuch, all conservative Catholics dominating the Supreme Court, and imposing their vision of Catholic dogma on the body politic, it is hard times to negotiate being a liberal and a Catholic or a liberal and a Christian in any denomination. (Sonia Sotomayor identifies as Catholic as well but is of a different stripe.) But each oppression has its own flavor and the Southern Baptists are particularly blatant in seeing women as subservient. yet dangerous: needing to be silenced and subjugated. This is the future we face: the unholy alliance between White Nationalist Evangelicals and Conservative Roman Catholics, which historically have not been particularly allied or even friendly (When I was young, conservative Protestant friends would not consider Catholics as Christians. I suspect that is still true.) The only hope I have is for the long arc of the moral universe that Martin Luther King Jr. to continue to bend toward justice. But gravity alone will not bend that. That is why your writing is so important. I am convinced that the only way that happens is when we are all willing to listen and grow and committed to make good trouble in our churches and in the political sphere.
It is still true. Talking to one of my ex-husband's Southern relatives, he stated that he was a "religious man." Without thinking I asked, "Catholic?" and he replied, "No, ma'am, I am a Christian."
Thanks for sharing that. It should strike me as shocking, but it just made me laugh. I know that anti-Catholic feeling is a strong strain in American populism of the nativism variety. Roman Catholics as immigrants and interlopers. The KKK hated Catholics and Jews as well as Black people of course. In my first two teaching positions at small colleges in northwest Iowa and rural North Carolina, I was one of only two or three Catholics on the faculty, even though In Iowa there were two Catholic churches in the town of 8,000 souls. In NC there were only about 100 or so Catholics in the county. Yur story exemplifies for me why the collaboration of Catholics and White Evangelicals seems so odd, coalescing probably on the abortion issue.
Abortion is the tip of the iceberg. In every "Abrahamic" religion (does Mormonism count? It seems a little crazier than it has to be), it boils down to the complete control of women. Selling daughters, accumulating wives, removing agency, self-determination and the power of refusal while extracting unpaid work from women. If there existed a time machine, Abraham would be my first target for removal.
Very wise and correct amplification of the deeper roots of this alliance. "Tip of the iceberg" is a vital metaphor in this case. Thanks.
Once when my son was about 6 or 7, he asked , “Who is better off; people who believe in God or Catholics?” It was hard to deal with that on a level appropriate for a child, but the general gist of my response was that a relationship with God isn’t exclusive to any church. He was a deep thinker quite early, so we had many interesting discussions about things I never could have brought up to my parents.
I was raised in the Christian & Missionary Alliance denomination. Not quite as conservative as the SBC, but it’s pretty close.
Yep southern Christians don’t believe Catholics are Christian my in-laws had my child baptized bc her Catholic baptism wasn’t real and she wasn’t saved no church for her now
Oh my word! Seriously?!?!
See, THIS is why I refuse to call the "Nationalist Christians" by the term Christian. They are Evangelicals,,,, but NOT Christian, it's a huge difference.
Thank you. Thank you for saying all this out loud and with an eloquence and coherence I would never be able to achieve. So much of it was implied, shadowy, but pervasive — left to our child brains to absorb without realizing, let alone understanding. I haven’t followed the religion I was raised in for 40 years, and i still have to fight to recognize and release this brainwashing before i pass it on to my children.
Thank you for sharing. I'm so sorry that you, and so many others, experienced (and continue to experience) this shaming that stems from a flawed understanding of our bodies as "sinful" or just "wrong."
It does help me to understand how so many (male) legislators are utterly clueless about what they're trying to legislate — e.g. banning abortions for ectopic pregnancies. Ugh. Gross. Their lack of interest in how bodies actually work will end up killing many people and their disinterest will not exonerate them.
'Mankind will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest'- Diderot
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