Jess, thank you for doing so. It’s because of people like you sharing their stories that I’ve tried to be open and what some my age may consider too much info with my kids and friends about body functions. I wanted my boys to know what a girl’s body actually does and vice versa. The joke in our family is that at some point in a big family dinner the conversation will come around to someone’s toilet story. And now that I have a lot of grandkids that’s probably a good thing. My mom told me stuff as a kid but not everything and it just wasn’t “polite” to discuss it. But because of stories like yours I hope I’ve taught my kids more and they are definitely open with their kids. I don’t get a kick out of telling people about having a hysterectomy but I know I wish people had told me. Or of talking about options for menstrual products with my grandkids with uteruses when they want to and they bring it up in front of the boys. Some of that early “be polite” training exists but stories like yours burn with truth and we can change our ways.
Thanks for sharing Jackie. I was raised by a "staunch Lutheran" Mom and a SBC raised dad from OK. My dad was the better Christian and an unusually enlightened male. He was #6 of 8 kids so was assigned to help his mom with the last two. He saw how it was for his older sisters and his Mom, all those mouths to feed and clothes to make and clean. He saw his sister's get beaten with a belt on bare skin.
He was a great male person for me as an example. I'm a very outspoken female, not that I haven't stumbled, but raised my boy girl twins to have understanding of each the others challenges. Women are the future.
Just being in a community where they are dominant socially is traumatic, I had a weird childhood and the local churches had a lot to do with much of it. Being a gifted kid with a "shameful mother" meant I got regularly shunned starting in elementary school.
I was a Muslim for 10 years and knew quite a few fundamentalists, but the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage. Abortion is not forbidden in Islam. Shame is part of the religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism. Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith. But as in all religions, they are basically inventions for enforcing social control.
Some of the young women honor-murdered by their own families for refusing hijab or "being too Western" might dispute your take on Islam versus Southern Baptists. Otherwise, spot on.
I wasn't aware that some people feel it's a competition, honestly. But sweeping statements require precise responses, or at least responses that recognize those whose deaths would otherwise be swept under the prayer mat.
It's not a "sweeping statement." I clearly meant mainstream Islam. I lived in the middle east for 7 years and never heard of a single so-called honor killing, especially for such things as refusing to wear the hijab or "being too western." Your prejudice is showing, and your remark about prayer mats is just ugly and sarcastic. Honor killings mostly take place in India and Pakistan, where the mistreatment of women is common and women are killed for refusing an arranged marriage. By the way, honor killings are not part of Islam, but are culturally based. The Prophet Mohamed condemned them. Nevertheless, ignorance and misogyny have always worn the mask of religion, which is what Jess is writing about. We are not here to debate what we think a religion professes but to share our experiences.
You're persistent to the point of obnoxiousness. You like to conflate extremism with the religion in general, which is unfair and says a lot about you. Perhaps you should have actually read the Wikipedia article you cited,. Have a nice day.
Mary, for me, when you jumping from your particular experience in a ten year period to "the only thing shared b/w Islam and other Abrahamic faiths," it is an implausible leap.
You are apparently referring to religious doctrine when you say abortion is not forbidden; btw, it isn't for Jews, either; Jewish texts define life as beginning at birth. I just did a mifipristone rally with Presbyterians and Jews; we discussed it. You seem to be referring to religious practice--observable behavior--when you say shame was more prevalent within Catholicism than you experienced as a Muslim.
It's anecdotal, what you experienced. Religious expression might be as varied as gender expression. People pick from the texts what to emphasize.
"Religions" don't treat women like garbage. Religious people USE religious texts to rationalize treating women like second class citizens that they have the right to control. Lots of women buy into this, because some of their needs are being met.
Humans felt the need to make sense of the world and to impose social norms, so they came up with explanations, including religious explanations.
No, not at all. I'm not questioning your personal experience. I'm stating that your personal experience does not qualify as sufficient evidence for some claims that you made:
1) "the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage." I refuted that claim by pointing out that the Jewish faith also does not prohibit abortion. It's simply not am evidence-based claim.
2) "Shame is part of the [Islamic] religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism." I questioned that claim by stating that there is a lot of variance in how religious doctrine is expressed, depending on various factors. For example, NE Catholic priest refused to marry couple unless it was inside a church; Colorado priest does outdoor weddings. Plus, shame is a human emotion. So, when you say it's part of a religion, in what ways? How did you personally experience it as different between Islam and Catholicism? Was it induced or alleviated by a particular officiant?
And we can add this one:
3) "Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith." Your personal experience does not supply enough evidence to support this claim. When I was interviewing people who left cultic groups, I contacted Ayan Hirsi Ali to see if I might be able to recruit Islamic women to the study. I didn't get any, but I do know that she was raised as a Muslim and genitally mutilated; she also endured a fatwah for speaking out. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-my-life-under-a-fatwa-760666.html. In my years at Emmanuel Baptist Church, no one had their clitoris removed and their vaginal opening sewn shut, to my knowledge. That's my personal experience.
I took your initial post as a protective instinct against prejudice against Muslims, which I appreciate. I simply feel that we need to be cautious in how we speak about religious groups, and that it's important for us to understand the limits to what we have come to believe via personal experience. Just because I walk outside and its raining doesn't mean its raining everywhere.
Seems kind of dumb to be arguing about this, much less throwing pointed barbs like "So, you are questioning my personal experience because you were there at the time. Got it."
Yeah…Catholicism🤬 The hypocrisy of ALL religions, which all believers think are divinely inspired, is too much. Native Americans seem to have the most honest belief systems that while laced with spirituality are also recognized as stories that teach.
It’s not just the Southern Baptist.
Exactly. It's just the only one I can speak on.
This is powerful. Thank you.
Jess, thank you for doing so. It’s because of people like you sharing their stories that I’ve tried to be open and what some my age may consider too much info with my kids and friends about body functions. I wanted my boys to know what a girl’s body actually does and vice versa. The joke in our family is that at some point in a big family dinner the conversation will come around to someone’s toilet story. And now that I have a lot of grandkids that’s probably a good thing. My mom told me stuff as a kid but not everything and it just wasn’t “polite” to discuss it. But because of stories like yours I hope I’ve taught my kids more and they are definitely open with their kids. I don’t get a kick out of telling people about having a hysterectomy but I know I wish people had told me. Or of talking about options for menstrual products with my grandkids with uteruses when they want to and they bring it up in front of the boys. Some of that early “be polite” training exists but stories like yours burn with truth and we can change our ways.
Thanks for sharing Jackie. I was raised by a "staunch Lutheran" Mom and a SBC raised dad from OK. My dad was the better Christian and an unusually enlightened male. He was #6 of 8 kids so was assigned to help his mom with the last two. He saw how it was for his older sisters and his Mom, all those mouths to feed and clothes to make and clean. He saw his sister's get beaten with a belt on bare skin.
He was a great male person for me as an example. I'm a very outspoken female, not that I haven't stumbled, but raised my boy girl twins to have understanding of each the others challenges. Women are the future.
Just being in a community where they are dominant socially is traumatic, I had a weird childhood and the local churches had a lot to do with much of it. Being a gifted kid with a "shameful mother" meant I got regularly shunned starting in elementary school.
So sorry for your experiences...
I’m so sorry for people being just plain mean and judging others. Reminds me of that song “Harper Valley PTA.”
One of my mom's favorites. Mine, too. I still know the words.
I was trying to think of that song earlier when reading some of these sad tales of growing up and young adulthood. Thanks!
*cackles* my mom LOVED that song.
So sorry, God is love and forgiveness,,, sorry humans tried to teach you otherwise.
Perhaps 'less bad' compared to the tender mercies of fundamentalist Islam. But it seems all the Abrahamic religions treat women like garbage.
I guess a death cult is going to death cult..
I was a Muslim for 10 years and knew quite a few fundamentalists, but the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage. Abortion is not forbidden in Islam. Shame is part of the religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism. Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith. But as in all religions, they are basically inventions for enforcing social control.
Some of the young women honor-murdered by their own families for refusing hijab or "being too Western" might dispute your take on Islam versus Southern Baptists. Otherwise, spot on.
Oh get serious. Do you think our daughters’ deaths for having tried to abort their babies is less heinous?
I wasn't aware that some people feel it's a competition, honestly. But sweeping statements require precise responses, or at least responses that recognize those whose deaths would otherwise be swept under the prayer mat.
It's not a "sweeping statement." I clearly meant mainstream Islam. I lived in the middle east for 7 years and never heard of a single so-called honor killing, especially for such things as refusing to wear the hijab or "being too western." Your prejudice is showing, and your remark about prayer mats is just ugly and sarcastic. Honor killings mostly take place in India and Pakistan, where the mistreatment of women is common and women are killed for refusing an arranged marriage. By the way, honor killings are not part of Islam, but are culturally based. The Prophet Mohamed condemned them. Nevertheless, ignorance and misogyny have always worn the mask of religion, which is what Jess is writing about. We are not here to debate what we think a religion professes but to share our experiences.
"Mostly?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States
What "cultural basis" killed these women and girls?
You're persistent to the point of obnoxiousness. You like to conflate extremism with the religion in general, which is unfair and says a lot about you. Perhaps you should have actually read the Wikipedia article you cited,. Have a nice day.
/sighs Perhaps you should have read my earlier posts about all "Abrahamic" religions. It's not like you weren't warned.
Are you this obnoxious all the time or do you save it up?
Y
Mary, for me, when you jumping from your particular experience in a ten year period to "the only thing shared b/w Islam and other Abrahamic faiths," it is an implausible leap.
You are apparently referring to religious doctrine when you say abortion is not forbidden; btw, it isn't for Jews, either; Jewish texts define life as beginning at birth. I just did a mifipristone rally with Presbyterians and Jews; we discussed it. You seem to be referring to religious practice--observable behavior--when you say shame was more prevalent within Catholicism than you experienced as a Muslim.
It's anecdotal, what you experienced. Religious expression might be as varied as gender expression. People pick from the texts what to emphasize.
"Religions" don't treat women like garbage. Religious people USE religious texts to rationalize treating women like second class citizens that they have the right to control. Lots of women buy into this, because some of their needs are being met.
Humans felt the need to make sense of the world and to impose social norms, so they came up with explanations, including religious explanations.
So, you are questioning my personal experience because you were there at the time. Got it.
No, not at all. I'm not questioning your personal experience. I'm stating that your personal experience does not qualify as sufficient evidence for some claims that you made:
1) "the only thing shared by Islam with the other Abrahamic faiths is the sin of adultery and of having sex outside of marriage." I refuted that claim by pointing out that the Jewish faith also does not prohibit abortion. It's simply not am evidence-based claim.
2) "Shame is part of the [Islamic] religion but it wasn't as prevalent as within Catholicism." I questioned that claim by stating that there is a lot of variance in how religious doctrine is expressed, depending on various factors. For example, NE Catholic priest refused to marry couple unless it was inside a church; Colorado priest does outdoor weddings. Plus, shame is a human emotion. So, when you say it's part of a religion, in what ways? How did you personally experience it as different between Islam and Catholicism? Was it induced or alleviated by a particular officiant?
And we can add this one:
3) "Women in Islam are not treated as badly in mainstream Islam as women are treated in the Baptist faith." Your personal experience does not supply enough evidence to support this claim. When I was interviewing people who left cultic groups, I contacted Ayan Hirsi Ali to see if I might be able to recruit Islamic women to the study. I didn't get any, but I do know that she was raised as a Muslim and genitally mutilated; she also endured a fatwah for speaking out. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/ayaan-hirsi-ali-my-life-under-a-fatwa-760666.html. In my years at Emmanuel Baptist Church, no one had their clitoris removed and their vaginal opening sewn shut, to my knowledge. That's my personal experience.
I took your initial post as a protective instinct against prejudice against Muslims, which I appreciate. I simply feel that we need to be cautious in how we speak about religious groups, and that it's important for us to understand the limits to what we have come to believe via personal experience. Just because I walk outside and its raining doesn't mean its raining everywhere.
Seems kind of dumb to be arguing about this, much less throwing pointed barbs like "So, you are questioning my personal experience because you were there at the time. Got it."
Yeah-let’s talk about the joys of Catholicism.
Yeah…Catholicism🤬 The hypocrisy of ALL religions, which all believers think are divinely inspired, is too much. Native Americans seem to have the most honest belief systems that while laced with spirituality are also recognized as stories that teach.
Native American and early Celtic are the closest I can tolerate.
😢